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Toby
September 20th, 2011, 12:20 PM
I'm sure I'm not the only one that complains about cold feet inside of a ski boot. There were days My feet hurt so badly from either cold or lack of circulation that I just wanted to remove them. Last year I skied for the first time in zero or near below zero temperatures and I swear I will never do it again: Well that is unless I can find a way to keep my feet warm.

So how do you guys keep your feet warm? Some things I've read about are the electronic foot warmers like Hotronic's, chemical heaters, battery powered socks, a type of glove that goes over the shell, and then more unorthodox methods (wives tales maybe) about coating your feet in a grease of sorts, chille powder in socks, and seemingly an endless list of other ideas..

So what works for you guys? And do your methods work for an hour before rewarming or can you go all day?

Thanks,

Toby

mastersracer
September 20th, 2011, 12:43 PM
I use a Hot Gear bag to make my boots easy to put on, warm, dry and comfortable. My boots are comfortable and don't require excessively tight buckling to be able to ski in them. I buckle them in the morning, re-buckle after a few runs then I'm set for the day. Good circulation is the key to my feet staying warm. Overtightening (or wearing too many or too thick a sock) cuts down on circulation.

My GF uses the chemical warmers and is happy with their performance. Friends use boot heaters and are happy. A couple use the Boot Glove and that helps them.

Chile powder isn't a wive's tale. It works. It encourages circulation by causing dilation of the blood vessels.

daveski7
September 20th, 2011, 08:31 PM
Toby, the key is to keep the toes warm but not too warm. Too warm and they sweat, that leads to freezing. Good socks that wick moisture are key. Proper fitting boots also a plus. As far as the BootGloves, they seem to work very well for me. I Patrol at night and when it is frigid out (and windy) they take off just enough bite to keep the toes toasty. They also double as a water barrier if your boots leak at all, no water getting in means dry feet also. If your boots are as snug as mine you might find the chemical footwarmers a little cumbersome, just not comfortable. Lastly, if your feet do sweat, bring a spare pair of socks and do NOT wear your ski socks TO the mountain. That's all I got! Anyone else?

Little Tiger
September 20th, 2011, 11:02 PM
1) Dry the boot thoroughly at night - that means remove liners most nights. Moisture in the boot freezes in the snow the next day

2) Wear different socks to the hill... put on clean dry socks with the boots

3) Boot gloves - make enough difference to keep my feet from getting too cold

4) Thin woollen socks (ultrafine merino is great)

5) keep the core warm - you may think you are warm but your body will decrease circulation to extremities(hands and toes) if IT thinks it is losing heat at all...

6) don't over buckle the boots firm is good tight so it hurts is not usually

Lars
September 22nd, 2011, 06:30 AM
Never having cold feet,

I always dry my boots and keep them in a warm spot
use a thin ski specific nylon-wool blend sock
never over buckle my boots which cuts off circulation
custom footbeds help fit as well as provide extra insulation from the snow

really, I have no problems with boots as they fit like a glove and I always keep them buckled loosely. My Wife also uses chemical toe warmers but to do so sacrifice a great fit. I also never take them off while taking a break or eating. It takes me about 10 minutes to get into them but once in them, life is good.

Toby
September 22nd, 2011, 05:33 PM
Has anybody ever used the hotronics or similar electronic heaters? I've seen world cup racers use them, but then they can take the battery packs off before heading down the hill. That doesn't seem like much of an option for the average skier, and skiing with the packs on seems a bit clunky, not to mention just another item to locate if you have to eject..

daveski7
September 22nd, 2011, 06:17 PM
Alot of people have to use them just because they have bad circulation or just plain old cold feet. If you do use them just don't mount them on the back of your boots because they are sure to be crushed by the lift at some point in time. That is the main reason we do not sell them anymore because of countless numbers of warranties. If you do have to eject however, your bootwarmers will be the last thing on your mind. LOL. There is alot of good advice being given so far, see what works for you and stick with it. Dave

Toby
September 23rd, 2011, 01:41 AM
Alot of people have to use them just because they have bad circulation

Hi Dave,

I think my only real problem right now is circulation so my goal is trying a new pair of socks and see if that solves it. Pretty sure that will help alot. But I may be delusional into thinking its possible to have warm feet at 20 degree F or colder anyhow? I might just be one of those that has cold feet no matter what I do.

I appreciate you and everyone else's advice very much. So Thank you all!

Toby

Freaq
September 23rd, 2011, 09:03 PM
Hi Dave,

I think my only real problem right now is circulation so my goal is trying a new pair of socks and see if that solves it. Pretty sure that will help alot. But I may be delusional into thinking its possible to have warm feet at 20 degree F or colder anyhow? I might just be one of those that has cold feet no matter what I do.

I appreciate you and everyone else's advice very much. So Thank you all!

Toby

I've never used boot heaters although for years I thought I'd like to have them. My feet are so often cold that I wear Ugg boots as bedroom slippers. All year long.

The secret for me was boots that fit. My boots are snug enough that thicker socks are not really an option, let alone chemical heaters yet I had no problem skiing all day long on a day that started at -50* and didn't get a whole lot warmer. I won't say that I was toasty but fingers and nose were the reason to warm up, not feet.


A few years ago I met some online friends at Jay Peak in Vermont. Half way through out first run of the day we stopped to regroup and before we pointed 'em down again I noticed somebody's pack of cigarettes sitting on the snow a couple of trees over. I gave thought to going to going over to pick them up so I could dispose of them properly but the others in the group were already heading away and I didn't want get separated from new friends at an unfamiliar mountain. At lunch one of the guys noticed that his boot warmer battery pack was missing. When I saw what the other one looked like...... yup, you guessed it. Pretty much like a cigarette pack as far as I could tell.

Toby
September 24th, 2011, 11:37 AM
At lunch one of the guys noticed that his boot warmer battery pack was missing. When I saw what the other one looked like...... yup, you guessed it. Pretty much like a cigarette pack as far as I could tell.

Hi Freaq,

This is perhaps my greatest mortal fear/Losing things. A friend has named several of my hiking trips by the items I've lost. Examples: One glove mountain; one hat mountain; one water bottle mountain; two glove mountain (luckily a friend had an extra set). The last thing I need is another trip deemed, one heater pack mountain.

SMJ
September 24th, 2011, 12:50 PM
I'v used Hotronics for years, used to lose batteries, but since I started using the plastic clips that attach to your power strap that the batteries slide into and click into place they're fine.

Toby
September 24th, 2011, 09:32 PM
HI SMJ,

Have you ever used the chemical heaters before, and if so how do they compare to the Hotronics? Warmer, cooler etc?

Thanks,

Toby

SMJ
September 25th, 2011, 05:37 AM
Never used them, boots are too snug to even think about it. I have duct taped them on the outside of my boots over my toes and put boot gloves over them. Didn't do much.

Toby
September 25th, 2011, 06:38 AM
I have duct taped them on the outside of my boots over my toes and put boot gloves over them. Didn't do much.

HI SMJ,

so this brings up the question of boot gloves... Some have said they find an advantage to them, but sounds like you didnt?

SMJ
September 25th, 2011, 09:13 AM
Yeah, I can't say they don't work because many people say they do. They didn't help me at all when I tried them. I get frozen toes and the little hotronics disc right under the toes does the trick. I've had to replace the elements as the cables seem to go bad, but the elements are the cheap part - it's the batteries that cost way too much.

All the other techniques people mention are very important, dry socks (I wear regular socks to the hill then change into my ski socks in the lodge) putting talcum powder in your socks, dry boots, etc. But even with all of this diligence when it's 10 degrees or less (as it often is in the East) my toes freeze often.

daveski7
September 25th, 2011, 10:59 AM
Toby, for around $25, the Boot Gloves are worth a try. If your feet really get that cold though you cannot replace heat, it is the only thing that will work. The HotTronics do work, just be aware of where they are mounted.

Toby
September 25th, 2011, 11:46 AM
HI Dave,

So when you say mounted, are you speaking of the battery packs? I also thought you could get a long enough cable to put the batteries in your pockets, instead of mounting them on the boots?

Thanks,,,

Toby

SMJ
September 25th, 2011, 11:50 AM
Yes Toby, there are various ways to mount them on your boots, the clips they come with are useless. You can screw mounts into the shell or use the clips that attach to the power straps, that's what I do. Problem with long cables and batteries in your pockets is that if it's your coat you have to take them out when you take your coat off. I guess you could put them in your pants pockets.

mastersracer
September 25th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Don't some battery systems have a 'safety' leash option?

daveski7
September 25th, 2011, 07:27 PM
Snowboards are suppose to have those aren't they??

Bushido Princess
September 27th, 2011, 08:18 PM
I just had the Hottronics installed last week. I use the boot glove but I noticed it does not help much if it's too cold especially if ice gets trapped under it. I like it to protect my boots from sun damage and nicks. I like to do a lot of stretching and massaging before putting on the boots. That has made the most difference so far. I will know about the Hottronics once I actually get to use it.

Toby
September 28th, 2011, 12:55 AM
HI Bushido Princess. I look forward to your review. I'm leaning against getting one myself, mainly due to cost, but if they really do work well I might consider them. I just can't take the cold. Ruins everything for sure.

Also glad to hear your review on the boot glove. Without actually using one, I'm thinking it would probably be a bigger pain than its worth. I tend to adjust buckles after every run so it seems the boot glove would get in the way. What are your thoughts?

daveski7
September 28th, 2011, 05:35 AM
Toby, in most cases your bottom 2 buckles you should be able to set them and forget them. That is all they cover. If you are really adjusting your buckles every run, that is usually a sign of ill fitting boots. The idea of the boot glove is to raise up the temp enough so the feet do not freeze, not to make them toasty warm. If you need that, then you are a good HotTronic candidate. If I weren't 2300 miles away I would love to take a look at your boots. Dave

Bushido Princess
September 28th, 2011, 06:31 AM
Dave pretty much said it right. And I don't need to remove the boot glove even if I want to adjust the toe buckle. I just push it down. I don't even have to remove it to take the boots off or to put them on. I do remove it to clean and dry them and to make sure the shell is clean and dry at the end of the day. Sometimes I even leave the glove on the boots overnight. But the plastic in my shell has been nicked in a couple of spots so the glove is great for that. Also my toe buckle often comes undone so the boot glove helps keep it down. I, like Freaq, wear three buckle boots so I don't know if it would be different on a four buckle boot. But you should not be over buckling your boots or changing them every run. If your boots fit perfectly you should be able to ski unbuckled perfectly. If you are constantly having to buckle them they are probably too big. I was constantly changing mine until I realised that the problem was not my boots at all but my technique. Once I started to correct my technique I no longer needed to keep adjusting my buckles.

daveski7
September 28th, 2011, 06:32 PM
BP, by the way, nicks and dings on your boots give them character. They are a good sign of someone that is skiing hard.LOL

Bushido Princess
September 28th, 2011, 08:56 PM
That is true. I don't ski hard though. I got them from stepping out of the car and hitting the metal edge! No much of a ski story! LOL The glove protects from sun damage too.

daveski7
September 29th, 2011, 07:34 PM
I bet you ski harder than you think you do. Maybe we can get a chance to ski a few runs together if the Eastern Get Together works out. Dave

Lars
September 29th, 2011, 07:57 PM
I've never had any issues with cold feet or toes so I have no suggestions for anyone. Sorry

Toby
September 30th, 2011, 09:59 AM
I've never had any issues with cold feet or toes so I have no suggestions for anyone. Sorry

Hi Lars,

I wish I had YOUR feet then. LOL Consider yourself blessed.

Little Tiger
September 30th, 2011, 06:49 PM
Yep I get cold feet sitting at home on the computer.... stick them in a tight plastic boot in the snow.... :headbang:

Winks
October 19th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Toby,
I got Hottronics boot heaters while I was at a ski clinic in the Catskills 2 years ago and I think they're great. I've never lost batteries (though plenty of other stuff...I try to attach things to myself/jacket, etc). I don't think those chemical heaters work because boots are too snug to get them in. The only problem I've had is that a couple of times, the heaters accidentally got turned on high and I didn't recognize why my feet were in pain (first day wearing new boots once)---now I know the feeling and if I don't need them, I remove them. Hope that helps you. On really cold days, I love having them!!!

Bushido Princess
February 17th, 2013, 09:07 PM
I just discovered a phenomenal way to keep warm. The Key is to stay dry. I put some Baby Kjell's bentonite clay based organic baby powder in some knee high panty hose and put them on under my socks. It's amazing. I have not had to turn on my hottronics since I have done that but for below zero days I can also put the hottronic on the lowest setting and be fine. I tried regular baby powder, the kind made from talc, it did not work for me. My feet did not stay warm. But the bentonite clay organic version is excellent.

Toby
February 17th, 2013, 10:30 PM
Very cool tip BP. How did you know to use Kjells Bentonite clay based baby powder, or was it just all they had and you found it worked? Where did you buy it?

Thanks,

Toby

mtguide1
February 17th, 2013, 11:17 PM
I started wearing neoprene knee braces last year and noticed immediately thag my feet stayed much warmer. BP hit close to and old mountain man secret. Wear panty hose as your first layer. Amazing how much warmer it makes your standart lo.g johns! I wear thin knee high support hose under my ski socks. I am usually good to sub zero temps.

Toby
February 18th, 2013, 12:41 AM
HI MT,

Do you also use some kind of baby powder between the two layers? I wonder if that is the secret, or if wearing the panty hose is enough?

Thanks,

Toby

Bushido Princess
February 18th, 2013, 05:02 AM
Yes I am an old mountain goat! ;)
Toby I know that some football players wear panty hose as well. I don't know if it is for the same reason but it might be because they play in the winter. I found the Baby Kjell's because I was specifically looking for an organic healthy talc free powder. I also just got Burt's Bees baby powder too since it is bentonite clay based and not talc. It is much less expensive than the Baby Kjell's and much more easily found since local stores sell it. I have not tried it yet since I just got it Friday. The Baby Kjell's is excellent though and I will definitely use it on bitter cold days. I got that at wildwoodsoapworks.com. I don't know how well the panty hose would work alone for me since the bentonite clay powder is what absorbs the moisture from the sweat. The panty hose would wick it away but with the plastic shell of the boot the moisture can't fully escape so it still hangs around and I get very cold toes after a couple of hours. But the clay absorbs a huge amount of moisture so you really stay dry all day and it also detoxes as well.

Toby
February 18th, 2013, 11:39 AM
Using baby powder to absorb moisture totally makes sense. Seems obvious now. I may try that. I have a health food store down the street from me that sells burt bees stuff. Thanks again for the tip BP!

Toby

Bushido Princess
February 18th, 2013, 11:48 AM
My Pleasure Toby. Let me know how it works for you.

LiquidFeet
February 18th, 2013, 06:47 PM
BP, this is an amazing idea. I'll try it. Does the powder expand and get stuck to itself or get stiff as it absorbs the moisture? In other words, when you pull your feet out of the boots at the end of the day, is there still loose powder in there, or is it caked up?

Bushido Princess
February 18th, 2013, 08:07 PM
BP, this is an amazing idea. I'll try it. Does the powder expand and get stuck to itself or get stiff as it absorbs the moisture? In other words, when you pull your feet out of the boots at the end of the day, is there still loose powder in there, or is it caked up?Actually with the Baby Kjell powder it is really wonderful. First of all she adds a little orange essential oil so it smells really nice. At the end of skiing there is no real loose powder or caked up stuff at all. It kind of works its way into my feet which is awesome because it has very healthy and organic ingredients. In fact every ingredient she uses is food grade so even though I would not serve this as an entree it is perfectly fine for even the youngest baby to stick in his mouth and ingest. But my feet are nice and dry and soft and there is no caked up powder. I wash my ski socks inside out and sometimes a little bit falls out when I turn them inside out to wash them but when I am wearing them I feel nothing underfoot and I put in quite a good shake. I have not yet tried the Burt's Bees but according to the ingredients on the label it might be very similar. I don't think Burt's Bees is food grade though and I don't know that it is completely organic like the Baby Kjell's. But it is much less expensive so if it works well enough I can use it for days when it is not bitter cold. But the Baby Kjell's worked beautifully.

Lars
February 18th, 2013, 09:14 PM
The best way to keep your feet warm is to ski hard enough to keep the muscles warm. Avoid long lift lines and long lift rides, ski steeps and moguls where you have to work at it.

I work outside most of the time so i'm used to the cold but staying busy and working hard keeps the body warm. Works the same for skiing.

Bushido Princess
February 18th, 2013, 10:27 PM
The best way to keep your feet warm is to ski hard enough to keep the muscles warm. Avoid long lift lines and long lift rides, ski steeps and moguls where you have to work at it.

I work outside most of the time so i'm used to the cold but staying busy and working hard keeps the body warm. Works the same for skiing.
Great advice Lars, but some of us have to learn how to ski that way first! Don't forget some of us are still babies in the ski world! ;)

songfta
February 19th, 2013, 01:45 PM
My "keep the feet warm" strategy:

- Use anti-perspirant on my feet (especially on the soles).

- Wear merino wool, knee-high ski socks.

- Wear a 3/4 length pant as the base layer for the legs with a non-constrictive leg opening to allow for full circulation. I avoid tucking any of the base layer pant into my boots (the fit is snug, and the extra seams don't work with my boot fit), but the socks overlap the pants by 3-4 inches, allowing for a gap-free base.

- The 3/4 length pant is usually one with a light amount of compression, sometimes layered over a silkweight wool base layer pant.

- I make sure there is no gap between the waist of the pants base layer(s) and the base layers on my opper body, sometimes interleaving the tucking of the layers to great a "multi-gasket," gap-free intersection. I find that when my lower back is kept warm, my lower extremities stay warm, too.

- If my feet need an extra boost, I'll sprinkle a tiny amount of cayenne pepper on the soles of my feet (the capsaicin in the cayenne promotes vasodilation - i.e. opens up the blood vessels to more circulation).

- I keep hydrated and keep my electrolyte levels high: better hydration means better circulation.

Note that I don't do multiple layers of socks, even a silkweight liner sock, as extra layers in the boots make the fit a bit too tight to promote good circulation in the feet.

And on extreme days, I have ThermIC boot heaters. ;)

So that's my $0.02.

Bushido Princess
February 22nd, 2013, 12:42 AM
Toby, I tried the Burt's Bees powder. It did not work for me.

Toby
February 23rd, 2013, 11:03 AM
Thanks for the info BP. Where did you get the powder you mentioned before? On a side note, the cold feet problem I was having appeared to be a circulation issue which has mostly been resolved now. Last night it got down to maybe 22 or 23 degrees, and while my feet were not toasty warm, they never became so cold they hurt, which was always the norm before.

learn2turn
February 25th, 2013, 09:36 AM
Neoprene Boot Gloves work well if you put them on when your boots and your feet are already warm. I haven't tried it but I've heard that using chemical hand-warmer or toe-warmer packs between the boot glove and outside of the toe of the boot actually works. I've never tried it as I can do down to about -5F with just boot gloves.

There are chemical toe warmers for inside the boot. Never tried them but I do know that you better get them positioned exactly right or the lumps may cause more problems. Never use chemical hand warmers in your boots. The formula is different not to mention the shape.

Electric boot heaters work great but are expensive and you need to have them installed by someone who knows how to do it right. And you have to charge and properly care for the batteries.

Pierre
February 25th, 2013, 01:59 PM
After the boot liners pack out a bit, tighten them up by cutting out inserts from Reflexstic insulation. Reflexstic is the foil on both sides of a heavy bubble wrap. It compresses in all the right places but keeps much of it's insulation value.

LiquidFeet
February 25th, 2013, 03:01 PM
Do any of these look like what you are talking about, Pierre?
http://www.reflectixinc.com/images/uploads/foil white folded larger.jpg
http://www.toolking.com/media/catalog/product/R/e/Reflectix_SPW0602508_6-in_X_25_Spiral_Pipe_Wrap.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=reflexstic+bubble+wrap&source=images&cd=&docid=sD1UZavlfLIyDM&tbnid=bFMxBSw0REw0LM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toolking.com%2F1%2Freflectix_ S100.php&ei=J9ErUcHeO7GL0QHA7oDQAw&bvm=bv.42768644,d.dmQ&psig=AFQjCNHv7067zZK-NnWLNJahqZHD2ZvVqQ&ust=1361912339512407)http://cache.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/user_uploads/1288391231_32439.pnghttp://cache.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/user_uploads/1288394316_32441.jpghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbbk9joqncIMqjLaAt5P7zvu1_6Nmv7 wi3t036mkY-bBX_oOcYpQhttp://cache.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/user_uploads/1288391995_32440.png

Bushido Princess
February 25th, 2013, 07:44 PM
Neoprene Boot Gloves work well if you put them on when your boots and your feet are already warm. I haven't tried it but I've heard that using chemical hand-warmer or toe-warmer packs between the boot glove and outside of the toe of the boot actually works. I've never tried it as I can do down to about -5F with just boot gloves.

There are chemical toe warmers for inside the boot. Never tried them but I do know that you better get them positioned exactly right or the lumps may cause more problems. Never use chemical hand warmers in your boots. The formula is different not to mention the shape.

Electric boot heaters work great but are expensive and you need to have them installed by someone who knows how to do it right. And you have to charge and properly care for the batteries.I have tried all of these methods. The bootgloves by themselves have done nothing to keep my feet warm even when I put them onto warmed boots inside before I go out. They never last more than 20 minutes at most. And the ice gets trapped underneath between them and the shell which defeats the purpose. They do protect my boots from nicks and sun fade though. I have not tried putting the hand or foot warmers between them and the shells though. I will try that. That might actually work very well.

I also have the Hottronics batteries in my boots as well and I have used hand warmers in my gloves and toe warmers in my boots. If my feet stay dry the toe warmers and the Hottronics work well. I have even used them together, Hottronics is on the bottom in the footbed and I have put the toe warmers on top of my feet under my socks to keep them in place but with a little piece of fabric on the glue side so that they are not touching my skin. Only on stupid cold days have I had to use them together. But the key is to STAY DRY!!! As far as hand warmers, I use them directly on my skin. I just hold them in my palms on the chair and let them float around my gloves when I ski. As long as I am outside they will not burn me. If I go inside I have to take them out.

Bushido Princess
February 25th, 2013, 07:47 PM
After the boot liners pack out a bit, tighten them up by cutting out inserts from Reflexstic insulation. Reflexstic is the foil on both sides of a heavy bubble wrap. It compresses in all the right places but keeps much of it's insulation value.
Pierre, this is brilliant.

comprex
February 25th, 2013, 08:54 PM
I use the boot glove but I noticed it does not help much if it's too cold especially if ice gets trapped under it. it.

I noticed snow ingress mostly at the instep, where a shaped ski boot leaves a bit of room. My current project is to shift the underfoot strap rearwards, to right at the inseam instead of under the flat portion of the boot lug.

comprex
February 25th, 2013, 08:57 PM
Yes I am an old mountain goat! ;)
Toby I know that some football players wear panty hose as well. I don't know if it is for the same reason but it might be because they play in the winter.

http://www.glieberman.com/categories/Knee-High-Socks/ <- mantyhose -thin knee highs.

Bushido Princess
February 26th, 2013, 06:29 AM
- mantyhose -
LOL!!!

Bushido Princess
February 26th, 2013, 06:30 AM
I noticed snow ingress mostly at the instep, where a shaped ski boot leaves a bit of room. My current project is to shift the underfoot strap rearwards, to right at the inseam instead of under the flat portion of the boot lug.
Interesting. So you are remaking the boot glove? How is it working?

comprex
February 26th, 2013, 02:58 PM
Yep, 2.5" piece of nylon webbing stitched to just above the instep, in between the two lower boot bails, and with a pop button on the other side.

Well, you know that one sub-20F wind day we had last week? The first iteration (one snap button per strap, no leather/upholstery trim) kept her 10mm-fit stock Langes warmer than my 14mm-fit Tecnicas with Intuition Power Wraps.

cjc
October 14th, 2013, 12:12 PM
Hello, As a new "on-probation, less-than-10-posts member" I will offer a suggestion that I tell my students, and it is consistent with a comment posted above by LT, who said,
"5) keep the core warm - you may think you are warm but your body will decrease circulation to extremities(hands and toes) if IT thinks it is losing heat at all...

My admonitions is, keep your legs warm, to avoid chilling the blood that is on its way to your feet. Keep your arms warm to reduce the chilling of blood that will warm your fingers. A lot of people do not realize this simple fact of heat loss.
Madison

SMJ
October 14th, 2013, 12:40 PM
Hi Madison, you clearly seem to be a real poster so I moved you to the "Approved Users" member group, hopefully that takes you out of probation.

Pierre
November 11th, 2013, 08:40 AM
Don't know how I missed this thread but yes, that is the kind of stuff I mean.

Do any of these look like what you are talking about, Pierre?


http://www.reflectixinc.com/images/uploads/foil white folded larger.jpg